ADRIAN MA, HOST:
Nikki Giovanni turned 81 this year, and in her first eight or so decades of life, she’s been as accomplished as anyone could hope for. She’s one of America’s most admired poets. She’s won an NAACP Image Award seven times and was named by Oprah as one of 25 living legends. But Nikki doesn’t dwell on those accolades. She’s focused on having fun and being able to look back on her life and feel like she did her duty, as she puts it. She spoke with Rachel Martin for NPR’s Wild Card, where guests choose questions at random from a deck of cards – questions about memories, insights and beliefs that shape their life.
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RACHEL MARTIN: OK, so this is the memories round. Three cards to choose from – one, two or three.
NIKKI GIOVANNI: Of course, two.
MARTIN: Of course two – you said that like everybody knows it’s two. It’s the best number.
GIOVANNI: Well, I’m a baby sister. So I’m No. 2.
MARTIN: I get it.
GIOVANNI: OK.
MARTIN: Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid?
GIOVANNI: Yes, I wanted to know why Mars was red. And my obsession was that there was a war on Mars and that they had developed atomic energy so that Mars burned itself up. And as I lay in bed, for most of my life, actually, to look out the window, I have seen Mars, which is why I talk about it a lot. And I would like to go to Mars because I think that, as a Black woman, my sisters and I could build a community.
MARTIN: Did fixing your gaze upward make you feel safer? I mean, you had a tough home life. You’ve talked and written a lot about that.
GIOVANNI: Well, my parents had what I would call, in nice words, a troubled marriage. And what space let me know is that this could not be the end. When you look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms, and you think, well, there is something else – that I can’t quit now. There is something else.
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MARTIN: Now we move into the second round…
GIOVANNI: Oh.
MARTIN: …The insights round. This is stuff you’re learning now, stuff you’re working through now. OK, three new cards – one, two or three.
GIOVANNI: Well, let’s go for two again.
MARTIN: OK. What emotion do you understand better than all the others?
GIOVANNI: Patience.
MARTIN: Oh.
GIOVANNI: I’m incredibly patient. It takes a lot to really push me.
MARTIN: Huh.
GIOVANNI: Yeah.
MARTIN: Where does that come from?
GIOVANNI: Well, I don’t know. I’m the baby sister of two. So that teaches you. One, you’re always watching your big sister because they’re always so wonderful. They’re prettier. They’re more – everything.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
GIOVANNI: And so you’re always…
MARTIN: In your mind, yes.
GIOVANNI: And you want to say, well, one day, I’ll grow up or whatever. But most of my friends are older. I have very few friends who are my age. I’m 80. We were – I’m 81. But…
MARTIN: Right. It’s a long life already, Nikki, 81. And most of your friends are older than that – some good longevity.
GIOVANNI: Well, I’m hoping that – 80 kicked my butt. I mean, if it could be wrong with me, it was wrong with me. And I was thinking, OK, well, you know, I had cancer. I had lung cancer, and I had breast cancer. And I said, whatever it happens, I don’t want to be sitting – well, I’ll be sitting in hell ’cause I don’t think I’m going to heaven. But I don’t want to be sitting in hell, and they say, she fought cancer for, you know, 20 – I’m not fighting any disease. I’m learning to live with it.
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
GIOVANNI: And I want the disease to live with me.
MARTIN: Yeah.
GIOVANNI: So every morning that I wake up, me and cancer, we’re good shape (ph). And I said, well, let’s take a shower (laughter).
MARTIN: Go about our day. Let’s do our life. Yeah.
GIOVANNI: And one day, we won’t.
MARTIN: Yeah. Are you afraid of anything?
GIOVANNI: Well, I’m very cautious around ostrich when I was on, you know…
MARTIN: Nikki, what are you talking about?
GIOVANNI: Well…
MARTIN: Ostriches? You’re afraid of ostriches?
GIOVANNI: Well, yeah. Yeah, with it (inaudible).
MARTIN: (Laughter).
GIOVANNI: They are mean. You – no, they are mean. And that kick will kill you. Ask a lion. If you had to put a lion against an ostrich, the lion is gone. That’s why you don’t see lions…
MARTIN: That was just, like, not where I thought we were going to go (laughter).
GIOVANNI: Oh.
MARTIN: No, I like it. I like it. I mean, it’s real. That is your fear – the ostrich.
GIOVANNI: Yeah. You have to be careful around ostriches. People need to know that.
MARTIN: That is a good and unexpected public service announcement that you have provided, Nikki Giovanni.
GIOVANNI: (Laughter).
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MARTIN: So now this is the beliefs round – beliefs – one, two, three.
GIOVANNI: OK, three.
MARTIN: Three – do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind?
GIOVANNI: No.
MARTIN: Wow, I’m surprised by that answer.
GIOVANNI: No, ’cause it gets you caught up in your life. And that’s not what your life – your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty. And so, no, I don’t think about it, you know?
MARTIN: Have you seen people get too caught up in preemptively analyzing their legacy?
GIOVANNI: Oh, I’ve seen a lot. As I say, I know a lot of famous people, and they are – oh, you know, I wonder what my stamp will look like. I’ll be dead, so it doesn’t – no, I’m serious.
MARTIN: Someone did not say that to you.
GIOVANNI: Yeah.
MARTIN: Oh, wow.
GIOVANNI: And so you just – like, no (ph). No, I’m just glad when me and cancer wake up. And one day we won’t. And I don’t know. Maybe I’ll be sad, maybe not. I don’t know. It’s interesting. My friend Toni Morrison, whom I do and still do love so very much – and my favorite Toni Morrison, among other things, is “Sula.” And when Sula is dying, she says, oh, wait till I tell Nel – ’cause Nel is her best friend. And she says, wait till I tell Nel it doesn’t hurt. Wait till I tell Nel.
MARTIN: Let me ask this question a different way then, though. I get what you’re saying that you don’t want to get wrapped up in your ego. You don’t want to think about, you know, I’m so important. People going to remember me. What are they going to write on my tombstone? What are they going – what all the great accolades are going to give me? But are there moments when you think back and allow yourself moments to feel proud?
GIOVANNI: Oh, there are moments that I feel proud because I’ve worked hard. And I think the word that means a lot to me is duty.
MARTIN: Yeah.
GIOVANNI: And when I went to the opening of the African American Museum in D.C…
MARTIN: Yeah.
GIOVANNI: …You go around and around. I certainly recommend anybody doing it. And I had forgotten – because a lot of those things I don’t handle, and I’m not interested in. I forgot we gave permission to use my poetry and gave permission to use my – it’s not something – if you start paying attention to that, you’d be crazy.
MARTIN: Yeah.
GIOVANNI: And when I turned to the right, there was a photograph of me. And I just automatically – and it brings tears to my eyes. I automatically just turned to – over my shoulder to my left to say, look, grandmother, I did my duty. And – yeah. I – and it still amazes me that I did – I mean, I just – it’s like she was there. I did my duty. And that’s what matters to me.
MARTIN: Nikki Giovanni, poet, author, revolutionary, amazing human, thank you so much for talking with me.
GIOVANNI: Thank you.
MA: To hear more from that conversation and many others, follow the Wild Card podcast. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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