ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
There are so many individual stories about federal workers losing their jobs around the country that the big picture can sometimes look blurry. Here at NPR, a team of reporters has been looking at agencies from food inspectors to nuclear scientists to firefighters and more. So to put some of these different puzzle pieces together, we've invited three of our correspondents who've been covering the initiative known as DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency. Kirk Siegler was out in New Mexico talking to Forest Service workers. Andrea Hsu has talked to people at the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Geoff Brumfiel has been reporting on government scientists and technical experts, including people responsible for nuclear weapons. Good to have you all here.
ANDREA HSU, BYLINE: Hi, Ari.
GEOFF BRUMFIEL, BYLINE: Good to be here.
KIRK SIEGLER, BYLINE: Hey, Ari.
SHAPIRO: So to help us understand the big picture, will you each start by sharing a specific anecdote that you think captures the overall narrative of the last few months? Geoff, you want to go first?
BRUMFIEL: Sure. So in the early days of all this, I was speaking to people at the National Nuclear Security Administration, which is a sub-department of the Department of Energy. They're the civilian agency that maintains and stores all the nuclear weapons when they're not on bombers and submarines and things. And they told me managers were given just 200 characters - not words, characters - to justify why employees at the agency should not be fired. And these people have very technically complex jobs that are essential to national security.
SHAPIRO: Like, a tweet used to be 140 characters. The bosses had 200 characters - just a little more than what a tweet used to be - to explain why somebody handling nuclear weapons should keep their job.
BRUMFIEL: Exactly. Exactly. And they just felt it was an impossible task.
SHAPIRO: Kirk, Andrea?
HSU: Yeah. Ari, I've been talking to people at the USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service. These are the people who make sure invasive pests and diseases, plants, don't enter the country, and making sure, you know, food, mangoes, produce coming into the country and to supermarkets is free of disease. So this agency has seen about 1,300-some people since - you know, since January take this deferred resignation program or the fork in the road.
SHAPIRO: The fork in the road. Yeah.
HSU: This was the offer to, you know, resign your job and, you know, get your pay and benefits through September. But, you know, you're basically being paid not to work, to leave the government. And now we're learning that the USDA is trying to rehire people to do some of these jobs. The Agriculture Secretary, Brooke Rollins, was asked about this on the Hill last week. Here's an exchange that she had with Democratic Senator Patty Murray of Washington.
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BROOKE ROLLINS: We are actively looking and recruiting to fill those positions that are integral to the efforts in the key front lines.
PATTY MURRAY: So you let people go, and you're looking for new people to fill the positions that they had experience in?
ROLLINS: We are having those discussions right now. We are working with all of you...
HSU: And, you know, that's a question that a lot of these workers who took the deferred resignation offer are asking, too. I mean, including some - many of them who didn't want to leave their jobs. They felt forced to leave because they were being bombarded with these messages saying, you know, there's this offer. We're making this available to you, and if you don't take it, you may lose your job anyway.
SHAPIRO: I mean, Trump's Director of Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vought, has said that traumatizing bureaucrats is part of the goal - that he wants them to feel targeted...
HSU: Yes.
SHAPIRO: ...So that they're more likely to leave. Kirk, does what Andrea and Geoff are describing ring true to the people you've spoken with and the reporting you've done?
SIEGLER: It does. And to zero in a little bit on what Andrea is saying, in the USDA, it's a massive federal agency, and underneath the USDA is the U.S. Forest Service, which is often dubbed the Fire Service. They're the lead agency for firefighting. And there's a lot of uncertainty about restructuring there. It's unclear exactly how many people were RIF'd, or Reduction In Force, back in February. Officially, the agency is telling us 2,000 or so Forest Service employees. The union is telling us it's higher than that. And the Trump administration is maintaining that no wildland firefighting positions were cut. But that's not really the whole picture because many people hold these red cards, which allow them to more or less drop their day job and respond to major wildland fires. And it is really not clear, coming into the summer fire season, how much these agencies are staffed and how much these crews are staffed.
SHAPIRO: How much are you seeing the backtracking that Andrea described, of people getting fired and rehired or taking the buyout and then those positions being filled again?
SIEGLER: Well, in New Mexico, I spoke with a wildlife biologist, Kayla, whose full name we aren't using because she fears retaliation. She is still employed by the agency, but in February initially lost her job and then a court case put her back in. And she says it's just very much been an emotional roller coaster, not knowing what's going to happen next, and just a lot of work isn't getting done, she says.
KAYLA: And then it's hard to proceed with a lot of the things we're doing because a lot of funds are still frozen. So it's kind of - we're in limbo right now.
BRUMFIEL: And I should say, Ari - this is Geoff - at the nuclear agency, there was a quick reversal without any court cases. They realized very quickly that they needed these workers, and it was pretty embarrassing. They had to rehire them almost as quickly as they fired them.
SHAPIRO: It's been nearly impossible to get a comprehensive view of how many people in the federal government have lost their jobs, in part because of all of the back and forth, the roller coaster that you're describing. But can you say broadly how all of this is likely to affect the services that Americans rely on from the government, whether it's mental health care for veterans or air traffic control?
HSU: Yeah, Ari, I'll jump in here. This is Andrea again. You know, I think that what I'm hearing from workers is that Americans may not be thinking about, you know, the person checking to make sure the produce they're buying in the supermarket is, you know, free of disease, but these are services that Americans, you know, have come to rely on. And they, you know, describe a situation in which some of these services are going to be delayed or disrupted. I mean, you know, Secretary Rollins said that people in key positions, you know, were not being allowed to leave the government. I mean, people dispute that. But still, when you have, as Kirk mentioned, like, a lot of support people leaving - you know, example I was given is, if there's a - you know, a technician who goes and responds when there's, you know, some kind of sickness seen on a farm, well, the person that books that person's travel, who makes sure they have everything they need to go do that job - that person may have left. And so there's just a delay in getting people out there and getting people to respond and provide the services that Americans in general have come to expect.
SIEGLER: This is Kirk again. You know, the headlines are often about the big fires in the West, but remember, the West in particular is full of public lands and national parks, and I think it's going to become a little bit more clear in the weeks ahead as the summer season approaches. This will start hitting home and affecting everyday Americans and others when they visit national parks or national forests and see the work that hasn't been going on. The people who were cut from river permits, trail crews, hours at National Park visitor centers - it's a big part of the economy, particularly in the West.
SHAPIRO: So further DOGE cuts are currently on hold since a judge in San Francisco pressed pause on the government restructuring. Still, the Trump administration has said DOGE is eliminating waste, fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars. Can you say to what extent that's true?
HSU: Yeah, Ari, I heard a lot of questions about this from people at the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, including from one person who took the deferred resignation offer. You know, on their very first day of administrative leave, their colleagues started calling them and saying, you know, your job is on this list of open positions that they're now trying to fill. And so this person was saying, you know, someone else is going to be paid to do my job while I'm also being paid full salary and benefits through the end of September. Where's the efficiency in that? And also, you know, this part of USDA and other agencies within the federal government are mostly fee funded, meaning their salaries are paid for by fees for the government services, not through taxpayer dollars.
BRUMFIEL: And of course, just a reminder that the federal workforce - the civilian federal workforce is actually a very small percentage of the overall federal budget. You know, most of the money that goes out the door each year goes to defense, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. So how much you can save with all these cuts is questionable.
SHAPIRO: Geoff Brumfiel, Andrea Hsu and Kirk Siegler are three of the NPR reporters who've been covering the reduction of the federal workforce across the United States. Thank you.
BRUMFIEL: Thank you.
HSU: Thank you, Ari.
SIEGLER: You're welcome, Ari. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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