(Soundbite of song "The Raiders March"
IRA FLATOW, host
This is Talk of the Nation: Science Friday. I'm Ira Flatow. This week, here it comes, after a decade-long absence. Adventure archaeologist Indiana Jones is back on the big screen. This time he's hunting for a crystal skull stolen from a mythical lost city in the Amazon, and if he finds this skull and returned it to the city's temple, he'll be able to control its power.
I don't know about you, I haven't seen the movie, but my money is on Indy. What about that crystal skull? Is there any archaeological truth to the legend behind the movie? For the rest of the hour, we're going to look at the film and whether Indiana Jones' quest for the missing crystal skull has any basis in fact, or is it all just a movie fiction?
Well, who cares if it is a good movie? But I'd like to talk about the science behind it. And if you'd like to talk about it, our number is 1-800-989-8255, 1-800-989-TALK. Jane McLaren Walsh is an anthropologist at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History in Washington. She has also contributed to Archeology Magazine and she wrote the cover story in the current issue on crystal skulls. And she joins us today from her office at the museum. Welcome to Science Friday
Dr. JANE MCLAREN WALSH (Anthropologist, Smithsonian Institution National Museum of Natural History): Thank you
FLATOW: Have you seen the movie
Dr. WALSH: No, not yet
FLATOW. It just opened yesterday, I think, or today or something like that. So it's hard, it's hard to have seen it. But I think many of us have never heard about the crystal skulls until the movie came out. But they are something that's wrapped up in history, in mythology, lore, things like that. Tell us a little bit about them. What are they
Dr. WALSH: They're essentially human skulls carved out of quartz
FLATOW: Rocks
Dr. WALSH: Yes
FLATOW: Quartz crystal. And how - where do they ostensibly come from
Dr. WALSH: Up until recently, there maybe have been 10 or 12 in museum collections and most of them are small but there are too large ones, one in the British Museum and one in Paris. And they all are also - were supposed to have come from Mexico and the Aztec in origin
FLATOW: When you say supposed to, I see a little bit of skepticism
Dr. WALSH: Just a bit
(Soundbite of laughter
FLATOW: Just a bit. They're more like trinkets than actual worth, you know, very, very valuable crystal skulls.
Dr. WALSH: Well, my theory is that the small ones that are about an inch or an inch and a half in diameter, probably were made in Mexico, but in the 19th century, and were made to sell to European and North American tourists
FLATOW: Oh, my goodness
Dr. WALSH: And those eventually wind up in museum collections
FLATOW: So, they're not ancient like..
Dr. WALSH: No, I don't think so
FLATOW: No, they're..
Dr. WALSH: These stolen ones that I've looked at closely, they were all carved with modern tools
FLATOW: Tourist tchachkes we might..
Dr. WALSH: Sort of early airport art
FLATOW: And what about the big one
Dr. WALSH: Well, the big ones sort of appear in Europe, in Paris, and both of them are sold by the same French antiquities dealer which sort of aroused some suspicion in me
FLATOW: Now, were the little ones, did they start out as skulls? Or where they something else, because they have holes drilled in them, don't they
Dr. WALSH: Yes, my - I think and I'm not sure about this, but I think some of them may have been found by local people and may actually be pre-Columbian beads, not as skulls, but just as smooth round beads with holes drilled in them
FLATOW: And then someone in the tourist industry said, yeah, pick them up and..
Dr. WALSH: Improved upon them in the 19th century
FLATOW: Good choice of words, improved for the tourist trade. And so, there really is no basis in fact of these being ancient Aztec, Mayan or whatever
Dr. WALSH: Not that I know. I mean, the Aztecs and the Mayans did carve crystal, but essentially because crystal, rock crystal or quartz, is so hard, it's very difficult to carve. So most of what we find in archaeological contexts are beads or small lip plugs that are basically just ground into shape.
FLATOW: Are there any on display, you know, in museums as the real thing
Dr. WALSH: Yes, there are
FLATOW: Where can we - where - you're afraid to say so. I can see that
Dr. WALSH: Thank you. I may not be allowed back in. But yes, there are a few. A few museums still consider them to be actual pre-Colombian objects, or some think that maybe they're colonial objects
FLATOW: Isn't there one in a past museum that's on display during the world premiere of the movie
Dr. WALSH: Yes. But they - the French have been doing some very interesting research on their skull
FLATOW: Really
Dr. WALSH: And they believe it to be 19th century also. The people in the movie who have been doing some scientific research think that they're able to date the crystal. So I don't want to sort of jump ahead on them, because they plan to publish this
FLATOW: But they're not going to - they predate it back to Aztec time
Dr. WALSH: No
FLATOW: No, they - maybe a store on the West Side in 1928, or something
(Soundbite of laughter
FLATOW: Something
Dr. WALSH: No, they purchased their skull in 1878. So it is - it's at least that old
FLATOW: Right. That was the time where all these antiquities were rolling around the world, weren't they
Dr. WALSH: Yes. Yeah
FLATOW: The Egyptians and everything else were getting shuffled around
Dr. WALSH: Yeah
FLATOW: Let's see if we can get a phone call in or two, 1-800-989-8255. Tom in Baltimore
TOM (Caller): Yeah. Hi, Ira. Thanks for taking my call
FLATOW: You're welcome
TOM: Love your show. I'm the owner of the Senator Theatre in Baltimore, Maryland, and for the weekend of the 30th through June 1st, we're going to have Joan Parks and her crystal skull. That is the thing of fable called Max. And the owner, Joan, acknowledges readily that most of the crystal skulls, if not all of the other ones that she'd seen, are modern. But it appears Max has so far held up to scrutiny, with regards to tool marks or modern carving techniques, and it may very well be ancient. I'd just like to see what your expert has to say
FLATOW: Can you take the truth
TOM: Sure
FLATOW: Jane
Dr. WALSH: Well, I haven't examined Max closely. But I have been in proximity to him, and I think Max is a modern carving from what's called milky quartz, which is essentially what the Smithsonian skull is made from, and these seem to be appearing in Mexico and kind of - perhaps even Northern Mexico or the American Southwest, starting in the 1970s and '80s
TOM: Well, you know, the - well, I've seen this object, and it's made out of different types of quartz that have been fused down in the Earth, and supposedly, the crystal carvers have looked at this, and told Joan on numerous occasions that you can't carve that kind of crystal with modern tools. It will shatter
FLATOW: You think they had better tools than we have
TOM: Well, they may have sanded it down over. There's - isn't there some theories about that
Dr. WALSH: I don't think so
FLATOW: All right, Tom. Good luck on your premiere
TOM: Thank you
FLATOW: Don't tell us how it ends
TOM: All right
FLATOW: Take care. 1-800-989-8255. How can you tell? Can you give (unintelligible) people an idea of how you can tell if - how old it is, and whether the carving is new or ancient
Dr. WALSH: Well, one of the things I did when I first got interested in the skull, principally when it sort of arrived on our doorstep was, I did a lot of historical research, and I discovered this fact that the same person sold most of the skulls. So when I contacted the British Museum, I discovered that they were already in the process of doing a series of scientific tests on their skull.
So we formed a partnership, and did a joint study of the British Museum skull, the Smithsonian skull, and we borrowed the only large quartz - carved quartz object from Mexico, that has ever really come out of an archaeological context. So we wanted to compare the tool marks and the methods of manufacture.
And this was really - initial work was really done by Margaret Sax in free stone, looking at tool marks under a light microscope, and also scanning electron microscope. And then Andrew Rankin and Nigel Miggs (ph) looked at the inclusions in the quartz, trying to decide perhaps what the source was
FLATOW: Right
Dr. WALSH: And strangely enough, the skull may have had something to do with this. But this is the paper that has been in the works for nearly a decade. And today, I received a pdf of it from the Journal of Archaeological Science. So, it's about to come out
FLATOW: Saying what
Dr. WALSH: Saying what? Saying that - well, the title of it is, "The Origin of Two Purportedly Pre-Colombian Mexican Crystals Skulls.
FLATOW: Purportedly
Dr. WALSH: Yes.
FLATOW: That tells us the answer to the - that's the abstract, right
Dr. WALSH: Yes, fair enough
FLATOW: Yeah. Can you date the rock? I mean, is there any way to date the rock to see even if the quartz is that old, which is very old, you know
Dr. WALSH: Well, according to date the - yeah, I suppose you can date the rock. But that wouldn't..
FLATOW: Yeah
Dr. WALSH: That would just tell you how old the rock is
FLATOW: Right
Dr. WALSH: But the French think they're able to date the carving..
FLATOW: Ah
Dr. WALSH: So - and that paper is about to come out also. I think it's coming out in Nature. So it's wonderful that all this work is sort of finally seeing the light of day
FLATOW: And what a coincidence.
Dr. WALSH: Yes
(Soundbite of laughter
FLATOW: That it's coming out at this time. Sarah in Portland, welcome to Science Friday. Sarah, are you there
SARAH (Caller): Yes, I'm here
FLATOW: Hi. Go ahead
SARAH: Hi. Well, I was just wondering if just a presence of these skulls kindles in, you know, context of our - the world of anthropology for the time that they were thought original, if there's been any damage to the historical record with them in existence
FLATOW: What do you mean by damage
SARAH: Well, if there's been - well, with the historical record, a lot of avid anthropologists - myself, we, you know, a lot of research is based from that record, and I was just kind of curious if it's kind of either - there have been archaeological digs that shouldn't have taken place because of these skulls, if there's been research that shouldn't have been done in a certain way, because of these skulls, if there's been any kind of lingering damage that they've done to the historical record
FLATOW: Before we go, let me remind everybody, this is Talk of The Nation Science Friday, from NPR News. I'm Ira Flatow with Jane McLaren Walsh. Dr. Walsh, any damage to the historical record
Dr. WALSH: I don't think so. I suspect that a lot of people who say they've dug these crystal skulls up have actually purchased them, and the amount of research I've done on skulls in private collections is not very great, but most of the information that comes out of their so-called documentation is really just anecdotal
FLATOW: Let me go to one quick question from Kevin in Chicago. Hi, Kevin
KEVIN (caller): Hey, how you doing, Ira
FLATOW: Hi there
KEVIN: Yeah, hey, I was just wondering if there's some frustration with the pseudo documentaries that Lester Hall just did, one on skulls that would legitimize the magical powers of these skulls, or even the authenticity
FLATOW: Yeah
Dr. WALSH: Yes, yes. There is a great deal of frustration
FLATOW: Well, even if these skulls are fake, are they still worth displaying at all
Dr. WALSH: Yeah, well, I'm - as an artifact, I think they're legitimate artifacts. They're just not what they're purported to be. But they tell us a story, and oftentimes the story is more about ourselves than anything else
FLATOW: Mm-hm. So, you expecting now to be inundated
(Soundbite of laughter
Dr. WALSH: I've already been inundated
FLATOW: By us, if not all people
Dr. WALSH: I don't know. I'm hoping that once the movie is out, this will all die down
FLATOW: And not get worse, huh
(Soundbite of laugher
Dr. WALSH: And I can get back to work
FLATOW: What do you work on
Dr. WALSH: Mostly I do research in Mexican archaeological collections
FLATOW: Mm-hm
Dr. WALSH: And I'm very interested in 19th-century collections, because I think they tell us a lot about how we, sort of, absorb knowledge and how expertise evolves and..
FLATOW: Mm-hm
Dr. WALSH: They're very interesting to me
FLATOW: But a film like this, even though, you know, it causes a lot of chatter, it also picks people's interest in archeology
Dr. WALSH: Yes. That's true
FLATOW: You know, it reminds us that there are archaeologists out there. There are interesting and exciting things to discover, and maybe they will do some - in doing research on the skulls, they might learn something
Dr. WALSH: Yes, they will
FLATOW: That's a positive thing that comes out of, you know..
Dr. WALSH: Yeah
FLATOW: Culture in the films
Dr. WALSH: Oh, yeah, I'm definitely a fan of "Indiana Jones.
(Soundbite of laughter
FLATOW: Are people, real archaeologists, really like him
Dr. WALSH: No
(Soundbite of laughter
Dr. WALSH: Hardly any of those scary bullwhips
FLATOW: Well, how about the hat
Dr. WALSH: Well, actually a friend of mine recently gave me a hat. So, but I hate - but it's too small. So, I'm not wearing it
FLATOW: Do you have the whip, too? You don't have the whip
Dr. WALSH: No. No
FLATOW: How about the six-shooter
(Soundbite of laughter
Dr. WALSH: No
FLATOW: Can you run as fast as he does at 60 years old
Dr. WALSH: Well, I'm 60 years old, and probably I can
FLATOW: Probably you can. Are there places that you dig up, as dangerous as the places he goes into, physically? You know, crawling in spaces and..
Dr. WALSH: Mostly I do indoor archeology
FLATOW: Oh
Dr. WALSH: So, no, they're not dangerous
FLATOW: All right. Well, I want to thank you for taking time to be with us, Dr. Walsh
Dr. WALSH: Oh, you're very welcome
FLATOW: Dr. Jane McLaren Walsh is an arc - anthropologist at the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C., and contributed to Archeology Magazine, which has on its cover all kinds of stuff about these crystal skulls, and of course, she's going to be inundated with stuff and our phone calls about the movie, which opens up this week.
Maybe we'll take a look at the movie, and come back and have a critique about some other parts of the film. Lot of "Indiana Jones" things that seemed kind of wacky, a lot of science films - a lot of films that have science in it, I say, are - purport to have science in it. We'll be trying to critique them as we go along the way and find these science films.
And if you have any ideas, send us an idea for what film you'd like us to critique. What kind of science might be in them? And we'll get our science and arts teams on it, and see what we can come up with. This program is produced by Karin Vergoth, senior producer Annette Heist. Charles Bergquist is our director. Flora Lichtman is our producer for digital media, Schumann Mao (ph), our Metcalfe Fellow, our interns Christopher (ph) and Talyata (ph)
Josh Rogosin is our technical director and he's also at the controls here in New York with help today from Glen Alexander (ph) at WBUR in Boston. We also had help at Second Life from Lynn Collins (ph), Dave Andrews (ph), Jeff Corbin (ph) at the University of Denver, and if you have questions or comments, surf over to our website, ScienceFriday.com.
You can also log into Second Life where we have a bunch of folks there you can talk with, and also get a Science Friday t-shirt. Also, we are podcasting and blogging, and looking for your videos. Maybe you're an archeologist. You got to - we're looking for videos of digs. You have a dig? You've been on as an archeologist? You have a video you want to send it to us? We'll put it together, put it up with the dozens of other videos we have on our website. They get distributed to science museums and public radio stations around the country, so we hope to do that for you and create more videos. I'm Ira Flatow in New York Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.